« Anything done
well is art »

Cornelius TITTEL : We don’t have any makeup? This is like a makeup-free kind of...

Damien HIRST : I don’t know. I’ve got bad skin as well, they touch it all up in post-production.

C.T. : Yeah, nowadays you don’t need makeup anymore.

D.H. : I forgot I got no shoes on.

C.T. : That’s a good t-shirt. It will always keep your warm chest. It’s like really an extra light layer of cashmere.

D.H. : It’s good for Everest on a sunny day. It’s made for Everest.

C.T. : Actually, I never saw a t-shirt which has cashmere applied on it. This is like...

D.H. : I like them.

There’s a man with a fan at the door.

C.T. : Oh really?

D.H. : Cashmere and fans.

Cornelius TITTEL : Damien, we start from the beginning. What is your personal relationship with Barrie? How did this all start?

Damien HIRST : I can’t remember when, but a long time ago, when I just was shopping with my girlfriend and bought some things for myself. So, I just loved the brand. I liked that they sold patches that you could put where you wanted on the jackets. So, it’s kind of this elegant brand, but a bit punk rock as well. And I loved the fact that you could play around with it. And also, the novelty stuff. You put patches over the top of all this stuff. And the beads on it. It was kind of clunky, but looked cool.

And then, from that, I think I was just wearing it. I just used to wear it. So, people would always say : « Where did you get that from? » Because it always looked good.

Like, the zips are really great. They’re thin and they work really well. A lot of zips on a lot of clothings, they don’t function great. And I’ve always liked the function with the aesthetics. And then, Barrie approached me to do something with them, because they saw me, probably in the press, wearing Barrie clothes.

C.T. : You have so many offers coming to you. What gave you the feeling ‘this is something I won’t say no to, but I will embrace’ and really make it your own?

D.H. : You can have offers of cool shit. Can you say shit? I don’t know. Beep, stuff, cool stuff. I just really like the brand. I love wearing it. I love the fit. I like the clothes. I was like a big fan. So, when they approached me, I was like : « Yeah, let’s do something ». You don’t normally get a connection like that with brands. I must say I didn’t realise it was kind of so advanced as well. Because you sort of imagine it’s the mixture of a kind. It’s got a lot of modern technology as well as being a small homey kind of company. It feels like that as well. The things are just really well made. I work with a guy who does clothes, and he makes me cashmere things. Yeah, also I’m a slut for cashmere for my scenes.

C.T. Take us into the process of creating this Barrie and Damien Hirst capsule collection. How was the actual work going?

D.H. : I said : « Just sent me some of your hoodies, I love the fit of them ». So they sent me some stuff that I would like to wear. And then I did a few other things. They brought in a sweatshirt, which I was a bit worried about because I thought it was very different from the rest of the collection. But now seeing it all together, it looks great. And it was a way to make a few more pieces without all the spots. But, you know, we were very, very difficult on them to get the spots to look like circles in the patterns.

When I originally did the Spots, it was like a man trying to be a machine. But when you look close, you see the hand of the man. So it’s kind of like the opposite of that in the work.

I remember I had a tutor, when I was on a foundation course in Leeds. I was making these paintings, and I used to always resolve every problem with colour. It was very pretty, but I wanted to be a painter. Because I loved the idea. And then my tutor said to me : « These would make great curtains! » And I remember thinking, it’s kind of not what I want. But the more you think about it, you kind of think : what’s wrong with curtains?

In a way, when I got to the Spots paintings, they were kind of curtains. I don’t know, like with the diamond skull (For the Love of God, 2007), it’s like decoration. Decoration is something that works really well against death because we don’t understand it. So curtains and death can go together. You’re staring death in the face, and somehow you decide, « I’m going to make some curtains. » And people think it’s amazing, because it’s such an unimaginable thing to do.

Anyway, to say your paintings are like curtains is a huge criticism. So it’s funny how that’s wrong. In the UK, we have this expression : « It’s curtains for you. ». It means you’re finished, that’s it, you’re dead. Like the curtain call at the end of a play, however, the curtain goes down.

C.T. I’m sure you declined a few offers of doing handbags, for example, like some of your peers.

D.H. : It’s just making. And I think anything done well is art. I remember thinking at the beginning of my career : « If somebody offered me rather the Mona Lisa or its merchandising rights, which would I take? » I was thinking, damn, I don’t know. You’re thinking a postcard on every student’s wall, or the thing behind the bulletproof glass that everyone’s trying to look at. That’s when I thought I want both.

I’ve done things before, like a surfboard, and then you go into someone’s house and it’s on the wall. And I kind of wish they were surfing on it, but they don’t. They just put it on the wall. So to get something like these Barrie knits, which are great, which you can wear, and people will wear them and like them, I think it’s just really enjoyable.

C.T. : It has been 40 years exactly since your very first Spots painting. Can you take us back to this moment when you first had this? You once said it’s a very dumb idea, but it’s also just the perfect idea.

D.H. : I was thinking that religion and science give you a way to understand the world. And that artists do a similar thing. And also that neither work perfectly, and that you need a bit of everything. So I was sort of trying to do that, asking myself : how do I get a bit of science in my paintings?

I grew up in the north of England, where people were pretty sceptical about modern art. The attitude was often, « when you can do a drawing that looks like me, then you’re a proper artist. All this modern stuff is rubbish. » At that time, people were saying that the Tate Gallery spent 60,000 pounds of taxpayers’ money to buy a pile of bricks. And I remember thinking, looking at Carl Andre, that it’s crap. And that when painting was good, it was about painters like Rothko, de Kooning, Baselitz. Some artists who paint how you feel, like Goya. Bacon, of course, I loved his work. And then I thought, contemporary art had lost its way.

And I got a job, hanging pictures at the Anthony d’Offay Gallery, in London. I got to install Carl Andre. Meanwhile I was making collages like Kurt Schwitters, who I originally thought was a German artist because I made them before I saw his work. And I realised I was walking around with my head in the ground looking on the streets for bits of rubbish. And there’s a whole world going on. I realised that Carl Andre was more connected to the shop windows, the advertising, the billboards, the shop displays, and, you know, light boxes and things like that. And there was this interconnected world I was missing. That’s when I thought: oh no, Carl Andre is amazing, and Donald Judd is amazing. The whole thing sort of blew my mind and kind of messed me up. And then I started trying to fuse sort of expressionism with minimalism.

That’s probably when the Spot paintings came about, forty years ago. The system was simple: every spot the same size, every gap the same size. I loved the idea of creating a set of rules and then following them endlessly. I even imagined an artist who painted like a machine and would go on painting forever. At one point, I thought Spot Paintings would be the only thing I’d ever make. There’s still part of me that loves that idea, doing just one thing, over and over again.

C.T. : Back then, did you immediately know that you invented something that has this classic quality? That it might even inspire like a fashion collection 40 years later. That there’s something about it which has a massive staying power and is very convincing. Was it clear to you or was it just...

D.H. : ... I think I probably stole the idea. I’d seen Larry Poons and then Richard Schmid who obviously did the Color Charts. And I remember with Goldsmiths, I kind of realised it doesn’t matter if you steal. They sort of encourage you to steal each other’s ideas when we’re all at college. And I was thinking that’s a bit weird, you know. But then thinking that originality is not really possible. So you have to be original in your kind and then you want to make a comment about the world and everything’s from everywhere. So there was all this going on.

And I remember thinking : I can take these things. Polka dots were popular in the 60s. I just thought I stole them anyway. Then in London in the 80s, I went into a paper chase where they sell wrapping paper and there were spots. People were going : « They’ve stolen your idea! ». And I was like, I stole it to begin with. And you don’t know what’s kind of ubiquitous and what’s owned really.

I remember looking at the Picasso where he did the handlebars and the seat making a bull’s head from the bicycle and thought, it’s like originality is overwhelming.

You know, kind of everything had been done and there was so much choice and possibilities. I like it when the boundaries get blurred.

I came here in an old Barrie hoodie to look at the ones I’ve made. I’ve probably got enough clothes in my wardrobe to last me a lifetime.But there’s that kind of brand loyalty or stuff, you know, like a leather jacket or a thing. We just want to make great objects at the end of the day and things that make you think as well as look good. Art you can wear is a great idea.

C.T. : The Spots, because you just mentioned Carl Andre and Donald Judd, they can certainly be seen in the context of minimal art. But while designing these clothes now, you went a little bit more of a maximalist approach, I guess. It was not only the spots, it was butterflies, it was your initials, it was the patches. Was it a journey from less to more, designing your own wardrobe?

D.H. : I think the Spots paintings were about a kind of an imaginary artist who was going to make paintings forever. And they were always perfect. And he would never die. Really, I felt immortal at the beginning of my career. And I thought they’d all have the same value, and they’d all look the same, and they’d be great. And really, what’s happened is the spot paintings originally look old and worn, and collectors want the ones that I hand-painted, the wonky edges, when I was drunk.Now, they’re much more perfect, done with stencils. And, you know, they’ve gone through lots and lots of processes. And so, I feel mortal now, and immortal at the beginning. There’s a huge difference in me, and the world has changed.

I guess it’s very difficult to know if it’s minimalist or maximalist, or what that means. There was a point with minimalism where I realised that it was emotional. I think that’s the point. When I looked at minimalist art in the beginning, I thought it was cold and irrelevant, and it didn’t mean anything. And I just thought, art has lost its way.

And then, looking at it again, I just thought, it’s got emotion to it, it makes you feel something. And I was really surprised when I discovered that, and it kind of blew my mind. So the paintings, I knew that they would always look happy. But if I didn’t repeat colours, there was no safety. So, it would always feel quite, you know, a bit overwhelming, but also feel like a sweet shop. And if people said to me : «You can’t do that», I would just try it and find out whether you could or couldn’t. And I usually found out you could, if everybody said you couldn’t.

But today, I don’t know. It just feels right to be doing this with

C.T. : While designing this, have you been actually thinking of working in Barrie, because I love the clothes, and I like that they stepped up. There’s been no pushing and pulling. I’ve always loved the idea of art you can wear.

the clothes, or just having a good day at home with the clothes, going out, or is it all in, is it three in one? Is it like a wardrobe, also for you?

D.H. : I usually get paint on all my clothes anyway, but I get annoyed when I do, and I try and get it off. But then you give up, and then you kind of have to buy more, which is great. But I mean, I kind of feel like I don’t want to get paint on these. But then maybe I should. I mean, when collectors or clients come to my studio, they sometimes get paint on them, and I think, no, damn, you know, nice suit, they’ve got paint on them, or a dress, and I’m like, oh, and they go : « no, no, it’s great. I love it. » And you think : I hate it ! I want to clean it ! And they want to keep it. So again, it’s a little bit like the surfboard - why won’t you ride it? Or somebody will say : « Can I have a brush, one of your dirty brushes? » So they become these sort of mementos. So there it is, I don’t know where art ends, and everything else starts.

C.T. : And that’s the beauty of it, of this project. I would say thank you, because actually, we could try to go on, but this was pretty precise, I think. Don’t you think?

Voix off : we can have a few more questions if Damien has a bit of time?

D.H. : (to Cornelius) You can make things up anyway, because you’re good at that.

C.T. : I told him that I recorded an interview with him, and the recorder didn’t work. It was 20-something years ago. And then I went back home, basically in-venting the whole interview. But you know, my first interview... Not inventing, like just remembering everything he said, and trying to put it in the same good way, and fun way, that Damien told us.

D.H. : And I never noticed.

C.T. : No, no one noticed.

D.H. : And also, my first interview I ever did in an art book was invented, as well, with a French artist, Sophie Calle.

C.T. : Really?

D.H. : Because I approached Sophie Calle and said, would she do an interview with me? And she was like, who the hell are you? I was a student. And I said : okay, what if I make it up? And she was like, okay, send it to me. And I made it up, and I sent it to her, and she went, it’s great, I need it.

So I did the same thing. And people think I had a great interview with Sophie Calle, until I entirely wrote myself at the beginning of the career.

That’s very funny.